Then in 1893 this Act of 1892 having expired, an Act was passed called "The Foreign Fishing-Vessels Act," to be found at p. 730. For the present purpose, all I need say about that Act is this: That it authorised the issue of licences to foreign fishing-vessels to enter the ports and coasts of Newfoundland under licences, for the following purposes: "The purchase of bait, ice, seines, lines and all other supplies and outfits for the fishery, and for the shipping crews." And then section 3 contained a provision to enforce the terms of the first section, giving power to officers to board and examine the vessels, in order that they should not be purchasing bait without licence, and to keep them under a sort of surveillance. 564 Then there appeared a prohibition against engaging any person to form part of the crew of such vessel, or rather a provision for the punishment of the offender, the owner of the vessel, if it were found that he had engaged any men without a licence. That Act was passed, as I have said already, in view of the fact that negotiations were still going on between the Government of Newfoundland and the United States, with a view to making a commercial treaty, or with a view to commercial relations generally, which culminated or ended in what it called the Bond-Hay treaty ultimately. This Act was passed in order, as it were, to keep things right, to keep things smooth (this Act of 1893), while these negotiations were going on. But ultimately, the negotiations fell through, and in 1905 the parties found themselves, as it were, face to face. The negotiations had failed, and the position of the parties then was that each side stood upon its strict rights. But I must observe here that these negotiations, and the failure to come to terms, had no relation whatever to the question of treaty rights; they related entirely to commercial or fiscal questions. That is, the negotiations. This clause, however, was put into the Act of 1893, and afterwards repeated in a slightly different form in 1905, in order, in the meantime, while the negotiations were going on, to facilitate the operations of the American fishing-vessels while they were fishing-vessels. And here comes up a sort of accident which has been the cause of some confusion and misunderstanding of the whole business in other points as well as those we are now discussing. By a sort of accident the same vessels that came down to catch fish at one season of the year came down afterwards to purchase herring. That appears I think clearly, and cannot be disputed. These vessels, when they cleared from the United States, brought with them the necessary papers and documents to enable them to carry on trade in Newfoundland waters, in addition to their rights as fishermen. They brought licences or clearances, or documents, I do not remember exactly what they are called. There are two kinds, one called by one name and another by another name. The point to which I wish to call attention is, that they were the same vessels which would be engaged in the cod fishery in the summer months, that afterwards came in the winter to the Bay of Islands to purchase herring. Therefore, a confused idea got among those who do not understand the case, without looking closely into it, that American fishing-vessels, when they were in the Bay of Islands purchasing herring, were there under their treaty rights. They were not. They were there simply on the same footing as any commercial vessels from any other part of the world; and the fact that they were American fishing-vessels at another season of the year is to be borne in mind, because it is endeavoured to be made to appear that these differences, or that these questions which afterwards arose with regard to the purchase of herring, had some connection and an important bearing on the right of the American fishermen under the treaty and on the treatment they were receiving at the hands of the Newfoundland Government. Whether the treatment they received when they came down to purchase herring from Newfoundland fishermen was hostile or not, friendly or unfriendly, the point I wish to bring out is, that it had nothing whatever to do with their treaty rights under the treaty of 1818. Then the Act of 1905 was passed. The issue then between the parties, or the trouble or difficulty that led to the enactment of this measure, related entirely to what may be called commercial matters or commercial transactions, and previously to 1905, with regard to the matter of the engaging of crews. This is a point which I think is of importance. With regard to the provision in the Act of 1893 concerning the engagement of crews, that clearly had reference only to the engagement of two or three men, in case there might be a shortage in the crew on account of an accident, a man leaving or becoming ill, or some more men being required. In order to meet such a case as that, that clause was put in the Act of 1893 to facilitate matters. Further, as has just been suggested to me, it was to meet the case of a bona fide fishing-vessel coming down into Newfoundland waters, being short of a man, or requiring a man or two-this provision was put in to enable the master to get a man in Newfoundland to make up his crew. SIR CHARLES FITZPATRICK: Which provision do you refer to now? SIR JAMES WINTER: The license to engage crews in Newfoundland. Number one of the Act of 1893. SIR CHARLES FITZPATRICK: Page 730? 565 SIR JAMES WINTER: And for the shipping of crews. It is p. 730. 92909-S. Doc. 870, 61-3, vol 10- 4 Then in 1893 this Act of 1892 having expired, an Act was passed called "The Foreign Fishing-Vessels Act," to be found at p. 730. For the present purpose, all I need say about that Act is this: That it authorised the issue of licences to foreign fishing-vessels to enter the ports and coasts of Newfoundland under licences, for the follow ing purposes: "The purchase of bait, ice, seines, lines and all other supplies and outfits for the fishery, and for the shipping crews." And then section 3 contained a provision to enforce the terms of the first section, giving power to officers to board and examine the vessels, in order that they should not be purchasing bait without licence, and to keep them under a sort of surveillance. 564 Then there appeared a prohibition against engaging any person to form part of the crew of such vessel, or rather a provision for the punishment of the offender, the owner of the vessel, if it were found that he had engaged any men without a licence. That Act was passed, as I have said already, in view of the fact that negotiations were still going on between the Government of Newfoundland and the United States, with a view to making a commercial treaty, or with a view to commercial relations generally, which culminated or ended in what it called the Bond-Hay treaty ultimately. This Act was passed in order, as it were, to keep things right, to keep things smooth (this Act of 1893), while these negotiations were going on. But ultimately, the negotiations fell through, and in 1905 the parties found themselves, as it were, face to face. The negotiations had failed, and the position of the parties then was that each side stood upon its strict rights. But I must observe here that these negotiations, and the failure to come to terms, had no relation whatever to the question of treaty rights; they related entirely to commercial or fiscal questions. That is, the negotiations. This clause, however, was put into the Act of 1893, and afterwards repeated in a slightly different form in 1905, in order, in the meantime, while the negotiations were going on, to facilitate the operations of the American fishing-vessels while they were fishing-vessels. And here comes up a sort of accident which has been the cause of some confusion and misunderstanding of the whole business in other points as well as those we are now discussing. By a sort of accident the same vessels that came down to catch fish at one season of the year came down afterwards to purchase herring. That appears I think clearly, and cannot be disputed. These vessels, when they cleared from the United States, brought with them the necessary papers and documents to enable them to carry on trade in Newfoundland waters, in addition to their rights as fishermen. They brought licences or clearances, or documents, I do not remember exactly what they are called. There are two kinds, one called by one name and another by another name. The point to which I wish to call attention is, that they were the same vessels which would be engaged in the cod fishery in the summer months, that afterwards came in the winter to the Bay of Islands to purchase herring. Therefore, a confused idea got among those who do not understand the case, without looking closely into it, that American fishing-vessels, when they were in the Bay of Islands purchasing herring, were there under their treaty rights. They were not. They were there simply on the same footing as any commercial vessels from any other part of the world; and the fact that they were American fishing-vessels at another season of the year is to be borne in mind, because it is endeavoured to be made to appear that these differences, or that these questions which afterwards arose with regard to the purchase of herring, had some connection and an important bearing on the right of the American fishermen under the treaty and on the treatment they were receiving at the hands of the Newfoundland Government. Whether the treatment they received when they came down to purchase herring from Newfoundland fishermen was hostile or not, friendly or unfriendly, the point I wish to bring out is, that it had nothing whatever to do with their treaty rights under the treaty of 1818. Then the Act of 1905 was passed. The issue then between the parties, or the trouble or difficulty that led to the enactment of this measure, related entirely to what may be called commercial matters or commercial transactions, and previously to 1905, with regard to the matter of the engaging of crews. This is a point which I think is of importance. With regard to the provision in the Act of 1893 concerning the engagement of crews, that clearly had reference only to the engagement of two or three men, in case there might be a shortage in the crew on account of an accident, a man leaving or becoming ill, or some more men being required. In order to meet such a case as that, that clause was put in the Act of 1893 to facilitate matters. Further, as has just been suggested to me, it was to meet the case of a bona fide fishing-vessel coming down into Newfoundland waters, being short of a man, or requiring a man or two-this provision was put in to enable the master to get a man in Newfoundland to make up his crew. SIR CHARLES FITZPATRICK: Which provision do you refer to now? SIR JAMES WINTER: The license to engage crews in Newfoundland. Number one of the Act of 1893. SIR CHARLES FITZPATRICK: Page 730? 565 SIR JAMES WINTER: And for the shipping of crews. It is p. 730. 92909°-S. Doc. 870, 61-3, vol 10- 4 Then in 1893 this Act of 1892 having expired, an Act was passed called "The Foreign Fishing-Vessels Act," to be found at p. 730. For the present purpose, all I need say about that Act is this: That it authorised the issue of licences to foreign fishing-vessels to enter the ports and coasts of Newfoundland under licences, for the following purposes: "The purchase of bait, ice, seines, lines and all other supplies and outfits for the fishery, and for the shipping crews." And then section 3 contained a provision to enforce the terms of the first section, giving power to officers to board and examine the vessels, in order that they should not be purchasing bait without licence, and to keep them under a sort of surveillance. 564 Then there appeared a prohibition against engaging any person to form part of the crew of such vessel, or rather a provision for the punishment of the offender, the owner of the vessel, if it were found that he had engaged any men without a licence. That Act was passed, as I have said already, in view of the fact that negotiations were still going on between the Government of Newfoundland and the United States, with a view to making a commercial treaty, or with a view to commercial relations generally, which culminated or ended in what it called the Bond-Hay treaty ultimately. This Act was passed in order, as it were, to keep things right, to keep things smooth (this Act of 1893), while these negotiations were going on. But ultimately, the negotiations fell through, and in 1905 the parties found themselves, as it were, face to face. The negotiations had failed, and the position of the parties then was that each side stood upon its strict rights. But I must observe here that these negotiations, and the failure to come to terms, had no relation whatever to the question of treaty rights; they related entirely to commercial or fiscal questions. That is, the negotiations. This clause, however, was put into the Act of 1893, and afterwards repeated in a slightly different form in 1905, in order, in the meantime, while the negotiations were going on, to facilitate the operations of the American fishing-vessels while they were fishing-vessels. And here comes up a sort of accident which has been the cause of some confusion and misunderstanding of the whole business in other points as well as those we are now discussing. By a sort of accident the same vessels that came down to catch fish at one season of the year came down afterwards to purchase herring. That appears I think clearly, and cannot be disputed. These vessels, when they cleared from the United States, brought with them the necessary papers and documents to enable them to carry on trade in Newfoundland waters, in addition to their rights as fishermen. They brought licences or |