After we circled around for possibly half an hour, then we returned to the cannery that we started from.

Mr. CULKIN. How big were those smaller boats; what length?

Mr. CARLSON. Well I would imagine one of them was between 110 and 120 feet long, and the other one was probably 130 or 140 feet. But they were well equipped in every respect.

Now there was a situation that was peculiar in Bristol Bay this year. The season opened the 25th of June and there seemed to be a few fish only to arrive, a very few, and what few we caught seemed to be caught at different points and I, personally, never happened to be in on those little intermittent runs, but they did not amount to very much. Naturally we all caught a few. We noticed they were marked and seemed to be discolored and seemed to be bruised considerably more than in former years.

As I say, the season opened the 25th of June, and we made this trip the 7th of July, and it was not but a matter of just a few days from the time we made this trip until the fish started to show up. It was our estimation that the ships of this unit were possibly catching all of the fish that were headed toward Bristol Bay at that time, so just sufficient time elapsed for the fish to get from that vicinity to where we were allowed to fish.

Mr. SIROVICH. And is it your theory that the fish, in coming down toward Bristol Bay, with the Japs having their ships and purse seines, bruised these salmon, so that you had evidence of their maltreatment when you caught them?

Mr. CARLSON. Well it is always possible for salmon to get out of a gill net a few of them, and any place I ever fished you would catch a few salmon that possibly had gotten out of somebody else's net and gotten into your net. But I believe it would be well to compare, on account of the regulatory measures of the Bureau of Fisheries, which, as I understand, are a conservation measure-I believe it would be well to compare that with the highly mechanized gear used by the Japanese fishermen, that we saw in our observations on this trip. Now we are allowed 150 fathoms of gear; we use an open sail boat, and all you have is a big pair of sweeps, or two pair, rather, and a sail.

Mr. SIROVICH. Is there not any power on those boats?

Mr. CARLSON. Only the strong arm power that you can develop by using oars.

Mr. SIROVICH. There are no motors at all?

Mr. CARLSON. No motors whatsoever.

The CHAIRMAN. Just elbow grease?

Mr. CARLSON. Yes.

Mr. SIROVICH. Is there a law against power on those boats?

Mr. CARLSON. That is a regulatory measure by the Bureau of Fisheries, as I understand.

Mr. SIROVICH. That is, that they cannot use power?

Mr. CARLSON. No; you are not allowed to use power.

Mr. DIMOND. That is one of the conservation measures, is it not? Mr. CARLSON. Yes. Now you can compare these boats which more or less, supposing you have no breeze, you would have to row, and they are between 28 and 30 feet long, and pretty heavy, loaded with a gill net, and you cannot propel them very fast; and, at times, even though you have a good breeze and suppose you have to beat it, you

cannot buck the tide. And you have a very strong tide and the rise and fall of the tide, I think, runs about 22 feet-that is the range of the tide, and then it runs something like 4-foot minus, so that you have a range of 26 feet.

Mr. CULKIN. How big a crew is there in one of those boats?

Mr. CARLSON. Just two men. Now compare that with the description I have given you of this Japanese ship that had room to stack an unlimited amount of gear on the stern of one of those Japanese boats, and you can see, as far as our competing with the present Japanese set-up is concerned, that is impossible. You are not allowed, as the regulations state, to go out there and fish.

Now here is an issue. I understand that at different times capital and labor, or the labor unions and the companies involved have differences, but here is one situation where there is absolute harmony. We are fully in accord with each other and naturally if we, as fishermen, are going to be employed, we cannot see this great industry destroyed or taken away by some other nation than our own.

Mr. CULKIN. Is there any way you can introduce that harmony in the whole of the United States?

Mr. CARLSON. Introduce that what?

Mr. CULKIN. That compact between labor and capital?

Mr. CARLSON. Well, here is one instance that it is certainly put into effect. I will go further than that and say that in recent years there have been substantial raises made by the packers in the price of the raw product and also in the wages granted to the employees whom they are employing.

If a condition like this is going to be allowed to exist and they are going to have to compete with this Japanese exploitation of the fisheries and their system of coolie labor, we know that the rights and privileges that we enjoy now, and the remuneration we get, is going to be cut to such an extent that we will be unable to make a livelihood out of the fishing industry.

Mr. SIROVICH. Is it not a matter of fact that independent of those floating canneries of the Japs in Bristol Bay, you people, as working people, have to contend with Japanese and Chinese coolies, and Mexicans, that come up there to compete with the very union men you are trying to protect, every year?

Mr. CARLSON. Well, there is an influx of oriental labor.

Mr. SIROVICH. How do you protect yourselves against them? Mr. CARLSON. This is going to be irrelevant to what I am talking about; but, to answer your question, I am an official of the Copper River and Prince William Sound Fishermen's Union, and, in order to protect our people from invasions of that kind, in order to guarantee them employment, we are going to take the cannery workers and make them a part of an auxiliary of the fishermen's union; because our constitution states that a person has to be a citizen, or eligible as such, to become a member. And as far as the cannery workers' constitution is concerned, I believe it does not stipulate any such thing.

Now immediately when we arrived back, we got in contact-that is, after I made this observation trip-we got in contact with the representative of the Alaska Fishermen's Union in Seattle, and also in San Francisco, and we notified them of the situation and we told them to mobilize for action, which was done in the shape of a resolution, that was passed at the Marine Federation Convention in Portland. That

was to establish an eonomic boycott on all imports and United States export goods to Japan if nothing was done to correct this fishing situation in Bristol Bay; and also at other conventions I have attended, which have been two in number, this fall, there have been similar resolutions introduced and they were also passed unanimously.

I also made a trip through Anchorage, Seward, Valdez, and back to my home port, Cordova, after being through fishing in Bristol Bay, and there were a few questions asked. They were interested in the situation and wanted to know if it was true. And after giving them the facts and the situation as it really was, resolutions were adopted and I believe I know-I am positive-that the State Department. has all of this correspondence and resolutions that were passed and sent out by the different organizations.

It is one of our wishes and it is desired by all of the unions and different organizations on the Pacific coast that we keep thoroughly posted on what is going on in this situation, and that something definite be done promptly. This resolution that was agreed to by all of the component unions of the Maritime Federation on the Pacific coast set a dead line of the 15th of November; but, to cooperate fully with the State Department, we held this boycott in abeyance and, at the present time, it is still in abeyance, and we are willing to do that; but, for how much longer, I do not know. The boys are getting excited; they want something substantial; they want something they can depend on besides just possibly letters of admiration written back and forth between the United States and Japan. So that is one thing that should be fully understood, that unless some definite and determined action in the line of legislation that our honorable delegate has introduced, is taken, you are going to have this to look forward to, that this boycott is going to be put into effect.

Mr. SIROVICH. Is your organization a member of the American Federation of Labor or of the C. I. O.?

Mr. CARLSON. It is a member of the American Federation of Labor. Mr. SIROVICH. Does that mean you are going to communicate, through the American Federation of Labor, with all of the unions you are identified with, to boycott Japan from an economic standpoint?

Mr. CARLSON. Well, regardless of whether you are a member of the A. F. of L. or the C. I. O.-they have C. I. O. unions on the Pacific coast-it is unanimous, regardless of what the affiliation is with. The CHAIRMAN. They have gotten together, too, then?

Mr. CARLSON. Yes.

Mr. SIROVICH. The American Federation of Labor and C. I. O.? Mr. CARLSON. Well, it is the unions on the Pacific coast that I am speaking of.

Mr. SIROVICH. In other words, the unions on the Pacific coast, independent of what organization they represent, are united in the determination that unless this legislation is passed, they are going to boycott Japan economically?

Mr. CARLSON. That is it, exactly. That is what the resolution passed by the American Federation of Labor implied.

Mr. CULKIN. You say you have had some correspondence with the State Department, and, at their request, withheld the operation of this boycott; did they assure you the matter was being taken up and they expected some adjustment of it?

Mr. CARLSON. Well, I am not conversant with that. What I am conversant with is the resolutions, and with the joint resolution written by Harry Stuhr and myself to the State Department.

Mr. CULKIN. What I asked you was, Mr. Witness, if you had had some correspondence with the State Department?

Mr. CARLSON. Well, I will answer that by saying I am not an official, you see, of the Alaska Fishermen's Union. Unquestionably, they have had some correspondence, but I am just a delegate. I am a member of that union, but I am a delegate; on account of being an eyewitness, on this trip, to the activities of the Japanese, I was delegated to represent them here.

Mr. CULKIN. You do not know about the character of the correspondence, then?

Mr. CARLSON. I do not.

Mr. CULKIN. Now just a question on another point: You are a fisherman, and these American fishermen operate from a boat with sail and oars and without power?

Mr. CARLSON. Yes.

Mr. CULKIN. And the average boat is about 25 feet long?

Mr. CARLSON. Oh, longer than that; they are 30.

Mr. CULKIN. Thirty feet long, with two men in a boat?

Mr. CARLSON. Yes.

Mr. CULKIN. Now how far do you go offshore in those craft?
Mr. CARLSON. Well, we do not go very far offshore.

Mr. CULKIN. I am curious to know whether you operate from a mother ship, or not, or whether you operate from the land.

Mr. CARLSON. We deal with a tally scout and deliver our fish over to what we call tally scouts. It is impossible at times to land the fish at the canneries; the water recedes; and possibly at other times. we are able to deliver to the elevator.

Mr. CULKIN. I understand you fish from these smaller boats; is that it?

Mr. CARLSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. CULKIN. And, of course, the catch under those conditions is very limited as compared with those 100-foot Japanese boats? Mr. CARLSON. There could be no comparison; no.

Mr. CULKIN. How long has that regulation been in effect, that no power should be used in these boats?

Mr. CARLSON. I believe there was only once that power was used there, and that was for a season.

Mr. CULKIN. And then it was discontinued?

Mr. CARLSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. CULKIN. Now did you tell me how far offshore you went? Mr. CARLSON. Well, our distance is limited. That map does not show; but we do not go well, I will tell you; you can look here and here is Kvichak, and here is Naknek [indicating]; we never go very far out from where the ships are anchored, and, if somebody will tell me how far that is, I can tell you. The ships are probably anchored 10 miles out from Naknek, and we do not go out-possible the farthest any one would go would be 10 miles farther than that.

Mr. CULKIN. Of course, you have to have fairly good weather to do that?

47570-38-8

Mr. CARLSON. Yes; and you have to have a little wind and a fair tide, or you will not be able to get back. And I have had to put in a little time out there and was not able to get back, so I do not go so far any more. And part of the time I had to row.

Mr. CULKIN. I am glad you are getting back to sail. That breeds a good strong group of men.

Mr. SIROVICH. In other words, as I see this controversy you are talking about, if the administration of the State Department that was in charge of the Government of the United States in 1930 or 1931, would not have given a concession to the Japanese to go in and fish at that time, the present State Department would not have the difficulty you are talking about; is that right?

Mr. CARLSON. I imagine you are right.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything else.

Mr. CARLSON. Well, I would like to say this in closing

The CHAIRMAN. Take your time, because you have come a long

ways.

Mr. CARLSON. Well, I do not want to blast too much here, but it is the way we feel, that is, in the Territory of Alaska and also along the Pacific coast, that this is a direct challenge to America, to the United States, and unless a determined stand, like I have stated before, is taken, to preserve this great potential food supply that possibly we will need some time-unless action is taken by our Government, we certainly will have, through our organization, to take positive action ourselves.

Now I am going to read you a telegram I received this morning. It is dated "Seattle, Washington, January 31," and is addressed to C. Chester Carlson, Houston Hotel, Washington, D. C.:

The Federated Fisherman's Council Executive Committee representing all organized fishermen on Pacific coast and Alaska have considered H. R. 8344 and wish to go on record as favoring passage. This bill will definitely exclude foreign powers from fishing industry in Bristol Bay and along Pacific coast. We urge you use your good offices in favor of this important legislation. Should H. R. 8344 fail passage, maritime unions as a whole prepared to take other action to stop Japanese interests from encroaching on American fishing industry.

MARTIN E. OLSEN,
Secretary-Treasurer.

Mr. DIMOND. Who is Martin E. Olsen? Mr. CARLSON. He is elected secretary-treasurer of what we call the Affiliated Fishermen's Council. In other words, it is a council or organization, you can say, of virtually all of the fishermen's unions of the Pacific coast and they, in turn, have other affiliations. But that just includes the fishermen's unions of the Pacific coast. Mr. DIMOND. How many members, approximately, are there in the fishermen's unions of the Pacific coast?

Mr. CARLSON. The membership of this, I believe, is eight unions. Mr. DIMOND. How many?

Mr. CARLSON. You mean membership?

Mr. DIMOND. Yes.

Mr. CARLSON. Oh, it must be between 12,000 to 15,000 fishermen. Mr. DIMOND. And that embraces the organized fishermen of Alaska, too?

Mr. CARLSON. Yes; the organized fishermen. We are the only union-the Copper River and Prince William Sound unions are the only unions organized in Alaska that belong to this. There are others that are in a state of development.